Changes

B: ...Mrs. M., how did you start [to work with Dr. Hamer]?

B: ...Mrs. M., how did you start [to work with Dr. Hamer]?

M: The clinic was closed December 31, 1984, because it was taken from a list of planned clinics [Krankenhauszielplan]. I continued to work there until June 30 1985 to conclude some work. And that Dr. Hamer presented himself in an assembly of the community and asked who wanted to work for him. I had family and so of course I said yes, I want to work for you.

M: The hospital was closed December 31, 1984, because it was taken from a list of planned clinics [Krankenhauszielplan]. I continued to work there until June 30, 1985 to conclude some work. And that Dr. Hamer presented himself in an assembly of the community and asked who wanted to work for him. I had family and so of course I said yes, I want to work for you.

B: You worked as a secretary and you were in the administration?

B: You worked as a secretary and you were in the administration?

B: Looking back, how would you describe your time with Dr. Hamer?

B: Looking back, how would you describe your time with Dr. Hamer?

M: I can describe it as a very chaotic period and exhausting time. Chaotic because he [Hamer] had no money, we sometimes did not have enough money to feed our patients and so it was very, very difficult to work there. He could not practise a therapy because sometimes there were no drugs available to relieve pain. I don't even know how he practised his therapy, what he used for his therapies.

M: I can describe it as a very chaotic period and exhausting time. Chaotic because he [Hamer] had no money, we sometimes did not have enough money to feed our patients and so it was very, very difficult to work there. He could not practice a therapy because sometimes there were no drugs available to relieve pain. I don't even know how he practiced his therapy, what he used for his therapies.

B: Have you ever seen someone healed by his methods, as he claims?

B: Have you ever seen someone healed by his methods, as he claims?

B: And then some people died there. You worked there about half a year?

B: And then some people died there. You worked there about half a year?

M: It was from August to December [1985], not even half a year. Four, five months, this story did not last any longer.

M: It was from August to December [1985], not even half a year. Four, five months, this thing did not last any longer.

B: What happened to the patients who died or with the terminally ill patients before they died?

B: What happened to the patients who died or with the terminally ill patients before they died?

M: I remember a terrible event happening to me. He was always looking for money. And friends in France supported him very much. And when there was absolutely no money left, he took his car and went to France. And then he left the patients and us alone for days. Sometimes it took two or three days before he came back. And I had a terrible experience - he was out, or he was about to go, early in the morning - and he asked me to take care of a particular French female patient. And after he left us and two or one hour later I thought: "Okay, now you should go up to the ward." I was in the office usually. And I entered the room, stood at the bed and thought: "Strange - this woman is not breathing anymore." And in fact she did not breathe, and I touched her and she was completely cold already. The rigor mortis had set in long before. Recalling this, I feel something cold and hot running down my back, and still have problems remembering it. Seeing it from his point of view, then he acted this way because he wanted money for one more day from her family. But this woman, in my opinion, died earlier, during the night before, and he knew that, and he simply fled.

M: I remember a terrible event happening to me. He was always looking for money. And friends in France supported him very much. And when there was absolutely no money left, he took his car and went to France. And then he left the patients and us alone for days. Sometimes it took two or three days before he came back. And I had a terrible experience - he was out, or he was about to go, early in the morning - and he asked me to take care of a particular French female patient. And after he left us and two or one hour later I thought: "Okay, now you should go up to the ward." I was in the office usually. And I entered the room, stood at the bed and thought: "Strange - this woman is not breathing anymore." And in fact she did not breathe, and I touched her and she was completely cold already. The rigor mortis had set in long before. Recalling this, I feel something cold and hot running down my back, and still have problems remembering it. Seeing it from his point of view, then he acted this way because he wanted money for one more day from her family. But this woman, in my opinion, died earlier, during the night before, and he knew that, and he simply fled.

B: Is it possible, from your point of view, that he did not want to accept reality?

B: Is it possible, from your point of view, that he did not want to accept reality?

B: Did the other hospitals accept this procedure without protest?

B: Did the other hospitals accept this procedure without protest?

M: It was already known in the region that Dr. Hamer practised as a self-declared oncologist in this clinic in Katzenelnbogen, even if it is not apt to call that "practising". You cannot call that practising. He did not use any particular method, used no drugs, not in the way of natural medicine and not in way of scientific medicine, being able to really treat and help. The surrounding clinics and physicians knew that he...

M: It was already known in the region that Dr. Hamer practiced as a self-declared oncologist in this clinic in Katzenelnbogen, even if it is not appropriate to call that "practicing". You cannot call that practicing. He did not use any particular method, used no drugs, not in the way of natural medicine and not in way of scientific medicine, being able to really treat and help. The surrounding clinics and physicians knew that he...

B: ...there were many female and male French patients among his patients during [your] period there. Where are they now? In the surrounding hospitals?

B: ...there were many female and male French patients among his patients during [your] period there. Where are they now? In the surrounding hospitals?

M: Yes, some of them, too... or he dismissed them to their home. He asked them to return home. I don't know what he told relatives, he spoke a good French and we did not speak French.

M: Yes, some of them, too... or he dismissed them to their homes. He asked them to return home. I don't know what he told relatives, he spoke a good French and we did not speak French.

B: So he wanted these dying French patients to return home to France in an ambulance...

B: So he wanted these dying French patients to return home to France in an ambulance...

M: There were also people who had a chance. I remember a young lady from France, not knowing exactly how advanced her disease was.. But when she came to us she was in a relatively good condition, however, I say this as a not competent person. But he said, - it was a young lady, a girl - "She has cancer". And she gained some fun in life during her first 14 days there. And she was open-minded. Hamer sent her home. And this woman came back three or four weeks later, being a bit more ill and having lost weight. And so he repeated this procedure twice. And at a certain point I knew that she died, also. I don't know the medical point of view, was not a patient, had no relatives who died there after his cure. I can only describe it from the point of view of a person working in the administration. It was chaotic. I don't wish myself or anybody from my family to be treated by him.

M: There were also people who had a chance. I remember a young lady from France, not knowing exactly how advanced her disease was.. But when she came to us she was in a relatively good condition, however, I say this as a not competent person. But he said, - it was a young lady, a girl - "She has cancer". And she gained some fun in life during her first 14 days there. And she was open-minded. Hamer sent her home. And this woman came back three or four weeks later, being a bit more ill and having lost weight. And so he repeated this procedure twice. And at a certain point I knew that she died, also. I don't know the medical point of view, was not a patient, had no relatives who died there after his cure. I can only describe it from the point of view of a person working in the administration. It was chaotic. I don't wish myself or anybody from my family to be treated by him.

B: Watching his internet-homepage ([http://www.neue-medizin.de]) and his presentations: Did you have the impression that he liked fighting [quarrel] or that he had the feeling to be persecuted in a particular way?

B: Watching his internet homepage ([http://www.neue-medizin.de]) and his presentations: Did you have the impression that he liked fighting [quarrel] or that he had the feeling to be persecuted in a particular way?

M: Of course... I believe that this is problem, that he felt persecuted. And the death of his son [Dirk Hamer died in December 1978]... and what he used repeated several times: that his wife [Sigrid Oldenburg] got cancer [she died of breast cancer in 1985] because of the death of his son, and she did not believe in his method and that she died because of this fact. And he was in battle with everyone. He accepted only himself, and he did not accept his clinic having been closed and continued to practise. From one day to the next we were a boarding house, we had no license as a clinic. So he said: "Okay, then I am a boarding house." He was in dispute with everybody. There was no possibility to discuss matters with him, even problems in the administration.

M: Of course... I believe that this is problem, that he felt persecuted. And the death of his son [Dirk Hamer died in December 1978]... and what he used to repeat several times: that his wife [Sigrid Oldenburg] got cancer [she died of breast cancer in 1985] because of the death of his son, and she did not believe in his method and that she died because of this fact. And he was in battle with everyone. He accepted only himself, and he did not accept his clinic having been closed and continued to practice. From one day to the next we were a boarding house, we had no license as a clinic. So he said: "Okay, then I am a boarding house." He was in dispute with everybody. There was no possibility to discuss matters with him, even problems in the administration.

B: Concluding, I would like to know since when did you notice that there was something wrong with him? You worked there because you were there in the administration in the past. Since when did you start to wonder?

B: Concluding, I would like to know when you first noticed that there was something wrong with him? You worked there because you were there in the administration in the past. When did you start to wonder?

M: It just took a short time. But recalling this period it seems that it was a long time. Thinking about that time I can't believe that it was only a period of five months, because this time was so chaotic and agitating... and remembering it I wish I never experienced this time. It was clear for us within a short time, after four to six weeks: "This is chaotic and there is no future with Dr. Hamer." Even if we could not say this from a medical point of view, and we could not say this to him, because we had no medical knowledge. I am an administration employee and have no professional medical education. Everybody who worked with him - and the local government -  refused cooperation with him somehow.

M: It just took a short time. But recalling this period it seems that it was a long time. Thinking about that time I can't believe that it was only a period of five months, because this time was so chaotic and agitating... and remembering it, I wish I never experienced this time. It was clear for us within a short time, after four to six weeks: "This is chaotic and there is no future with Dr. Hamer." Even if we could not say this from a medical point of view, and we could not say this to him, because we had no medical knowledge. I am an administration employee and have no professional medical education. Everybody who worked with him - and the local government -  refused cooperation with him somehow.

B: Mrs. M,. thank you very much for this interview.

B: Mrs. M,. thank you very much for this interview.