Changes

==Interview 1 by S. Bauer (B) with Mrs Gemmer (G)==

==Interview 1 by S. Bauer (B) with Mrs Gemmer (G)==

B: I start now with Mrs G, she used to work in the office of the clinic of Dr. Hamer in Katzenelnbogen.

B: I start now with Mrs G. who used to work in the office of Dr. Hamer's hospital in Katzenelnbogen.

B: Mrs. G, I am first interested to learn how these patients were being treated by Dr. Hamer. Who were these people?

B: Mrs. G, first of all I am interested to learn how these patients were being treated by Dr. Hamer. Who were these people?

G: They were people virtually abandoned by scientific medicine, they were abandoned by scientific medicine seeking a last resort with Dr. Hamer. They came from France, Italy and from all parts of Germany.

G: They were people virtually abandoned by scientific medicine, they were abandoned by scientific medicine seeking a last resort with Dr. Hamer. They came from France, Italy, and from all parts of Germany.

B: Do you have an explanation why there were so many French patients?

B: Do you have an explanation why there were so many French patients?

G: There was a sponsor, I remember, a French Earl, who was in that business with his money. And that's why Dr. Hamer was known in France.

G: There was a sponsor, I remember, a French Earl, who was in that business with his money. And that's why Dr. Hamer was known in France.

B: It was Mr D'Oncieu I suppose [Earl Antoine D'Oncieu de la Batie, president of French ASAC association in Chambery]. He used to support Dr. Hamer at that time. In your opinion: they were patients completely abandoned by scientific medicine?

B: It was Mr D'Oncieu I suppose [Earl Antoine D'Oncieu de la Batie, president of French ASAC association in Chambery]. He used to support Dr. Hamer at that time. In your opinion: these were patients completely abandoned by scientific medicine?

G: They were fatally ill patients. He transferred some of them to other clinics, to avoid having to present deceased patients in his clinic, [but] knowing that they were terminally ill. And so a new problem came up: suddenly the clinics in Koblenz and Limburg refused to accept further terminally ill patients [from his clinic].

G: They were fatally ill patients. He transferred some of them to other hospitals, to avoid having to present cases of patients deceased in his clinic, [but] knowing that they were terminally ill. And so a new problem came up: suddenly the hospitals in Koblenz and Limburg refused to accept further terminally ill patients [from his clinic].

B: I also heard, concerning the transport of the bodies, that this was handled in a particularly discreet way.

B: I also heard, concerning the transport of the bodies, that this was handled in a particularly discreet way.

G: Yes, yes, it always happened in the evening or during nights that the transportation car came for the bodies - in order to avoid that car being seen too often by people.

G: Yes, yes, it always happened in the evening or at night that the transportation car came for the bodies - in order to avoid that car being seen too often by people.

B: How long did you work for Dr. Hamer?

B: How long did you work for Dr. Hamer?

G: It was not a long time, I started August 1st [1985] and at the beginning of December, after the criminal investigation department did a house search and confiscated everything, the clinic was closed.

G: It was not a long time, I started August 1st [1985] and at the beginning of December, after the criminal investigation department did a house search and confiscated everything, the hospital was closed.

B. At the beginning you were impressed by Dr. Hamer for a short time, when he came into your town. Is that correct?

B. You were impressed by Dr. Hamer for a short time in the beginning, when he came into your town. Is that correct?

G: That is correct, I saw this man and I thought: "Oh yes, this is a very different doctor. Physicians usually are ''gods in white''. My impression was: "He is human", but after about three days I thought "No, this Dr. Hamer is quite crazy in his head". I could not support that anymore, his affair.

G: That is correct, I saw this man and I thought: "Oh yes, this is a very different doctor. Physicians usually are ''gods in white''. My impression was: "He is human", but after about three days I thought "No, this Dr. Hamer is quite crazy in his head". I could not support that anymore, his affair.

B: What do you mean by this?

B: What do you mean by this?

G: I was just the secretary, he dictated me some letters, to the district authorities, to the regional government, he was in battle with everybody, he had this persecution mania, always thought someone wanted to harm him. These letters were completely confused - I could not support that any more, and so I thought "There is something wrong with that man".

G: I was just the secretary, he dictated me some letters, to district authorities, to the regional government, he was in battle with everybody, he had this persecution mania, always thought someone wanted to harm him. These letters were completely confused - I could not support that any more, and so I thought "There is something wrong with that man".

B: But you remained there for almost half a year.

B: But you remained there for almost half a year.

G: Yes, in the meantime he had patients and they had to be taken care of somehow. They were poor people, often very ill, and I co-organized engaging a nurse who worked part-time. There was no money. Money lacked, that was the root of all evil. Then there was a woman to clean the rooms, I engaged her from the old hospital, and we also needed some people in the kitchen to prepare food for the patients. We could not simply abandon these people, these poor ill people.

G: Yes, in the meantime he had patients and they had to be taken care of somehow. They were poor people, often very ill, and I co-organized engaging a nurse who worked part-time. There was no money. The lack of money was the root of all evil. Then there was a woman to clean the rooms, I hired her from the old hospital, and we also needed some people in the kitchen to prepare food for the patients. We could not simply abandon these people, these poor ill people.

B: You worked in the same hospital earlier, before Dr. Hamer arrived and you were rehired as a secretary. So you never belonged to any inner circle of Dr. Hamer, according to what you told me.

B: You worked in the same hospital earlier, before Dr. Hamer arrived and you were rehired as a secretary. So you never belonged to any inner circle of Dr. Hamer, according to what you told me.

G: No, no, I had nothing to do with Dr. Hamer before. I was in that hospital which was closed for being too small and at that time we all were happy: "The work continues somehow ... a new doctor arrives and will direct this clinic, and we may keep our jobs." But in the end everything developed in a very different way.

G: No, no, I had nothing to do with Dr. Hamer before. I was in that hospital which was closed for being too small and at that time we all were happy: "The work continues somehow ... a new doctor arrives and will direct this clinic, and we may keep our jobs." But in the end everything developed in a very different way.

B: Now I have a last question, Mrs. G: Out of the time with Dr. Hamer, do you remember something exceptional?

B: Now I have a last question, Mrs. G: Do you remember something exceptional during the time with Dr Hamer?

G: Yes, I can recall an incident I will never forget in my life. We had a young and seriously ill female cancer patient and she was there with her brother. And one morning Dr. Hamer went away in his car without telling us where he meant to go, when he was going to return and gave us no phone number to contact him - nothing. And the brother came to me and said his sister was in pain badly and he was looking for the doctor. I told him "I can't reach him, he did not tell us where he went". And the brother returned two or three times: "My sister is screaming with pain." And I thought: "I will call another doctor now, it can not continue this way." And then I called our former surgeon who worked in a private practise then. And he told me: "I will come, but I will bring another colleague. I will not enter that clinic alone." He came with a second physician and they gave some analgetic drug to the young lady. And later they sued Hamer [made a complaint]. So the whole affair {of closing the clinic] started. Later, the criminal investigation department arrived and confiscated everything. This issue actually triggered the closing of the clinic.

G: Yes, I recall an incident I will never forget in my life. We had a young and seriously ill female cancer patient and she was there with her brother. And one morning Dr. Hamer went off in his car without telling us where he meant to go, when he was going to return and gave us no phone number to contact him - nothing. And the brother came to me and said his sister was in pain badly and he was looking for the doctor. I told him "I can't reach him, he did not tell us where he went". And the brother returned two or three times: "My sister is screaming with pain." And I thought: "I will call another doctor now, it can not continue this way." And then I called our former surgeon who worked in a private medical practice then. And he told me: "I will come, but I will bring another colleague. I will not enter that clinic alone." He came with a second physician and they gave some analgetic drug to the young lady. And later they sued Hamer [made a complaint]. So the whole affair {of closing the clinic] started. Later, the criminal investigation department arrived and confiscated everything. This issue actually triggered the closing of the hospital.

B: Why didn't this doctor want to come alone? Do you remember that?

B: Why didn't this doctor want to come alone? Do you remember that?

G: Yes, it was already a controversial issue at that time. He [Hamer] always said: "the scientific medicine"... The physicians did not agree to the methods of Dr. Hamer. Dr. D. did not want to come alone, he wanted the presence of a witness, a second doctor.

G: Yes, it was already a controversial issue at that time. He [Hamer] always said: "the scientific medicine"... The physicians did not agree with the methods of Dr. Hamer. Dr. D. did not want to come alone, he wanted the presence of a witness, a second doctor.

B: But how is it possible that he is practising such a medicine? How do you explain that?

B: But how is it possible that he is practising such a medicine? How do you explain that?