Testimonies of former employees of Hamer
Transcript of an aired interview with three former female Hamer-collaborators in one of the private and illegal clinics of the german former physician Ryke Geerd Hamer (clinic Amici di Dirk in Katzenelnbogen). The interview was made by german journalist Silke Bauer in April 2007.
- Author: Silke Bauer, RADIO Wüste Welle, Tübingen 96,6 MHz c/o Sudhaus, Hechinger Str. 203 72072 Tübingen fone: 07071/7603-37, fax: -47 info(at)wueste-welle.de
- Date: april 10, 2007
- License: Creative-Commons not-commercial, distribution allowed and wished.
Description
This transmission deals with the "Germanic New Medicine". It takes the position of neither the opponents nor the adherents of the concept, since both sides have stated their positions forcefully on the Internet. Rather, I am interviewing former associates of Dr Hamer. They tell publicly, for the first time, of their work in the service of Dr Hamer. It was not easy to locate these women, as they had subsequently married and changed their names. These women in the end declared themselves to give these interviews because the matter is ongoing.
The former associates reported that, in the time they worked for Dr Hamer, they saw no-one who was cured by him. According to them, Dr Hamer had dying patients rapidly transferred to other hospitals, or transported to France, in order to be able to say that they had not died in his care. Were patients to die in Dr Hamer's Clinic, the former associates report that Dr Hamer instructed that nursing care was to continue on the dead, even after life had departed.
Three ex-associates of Ryke Geerd Hamer are interviewed in this radio transmission of a private broadcaster in Tübingen. They worked with him in one of his private cancer-clinics in 1985. It was a coincidence that one of these women was found in 2006 and that she could contact the two other. The women had changed name in the mean time after their marriage. These three women report for the first time in their lives about their time in this clinic Amici di Dirk in Katzenelnbogen near Koblenz (Germany).
Interview 1 by S.Bauer (B) with Mrs Gemmer (G)
B: I am starting now with Mrs G, she was working then in the office of the clinic of Dr. Hamer in Katzenelnbogen.
B: Mrs. G, I am first interested to know who were these patients being treated by Dr. Hamer. Who were these people?
G: They were people being virtually abandoned by scholastic medicine, they were abandoned people by scholastic medicine seeking last help in Dr. Hamer. They came from France, Italy and from all parts of Germany.
B: Do you have an explanation why there were so many french patients?
G: There was a sponsor, I remember it, a french earl, who was somehow in that affair with his money. And that's why Dr. Hamer was known in France.
B: It was Mr. D'Oncieu I suppose [earl Antoine D'Oncieu de la Batie, president of french ASAC association in Chambery]. He was supporting Dr. Hamer at that time. In your opinion: they were patients that have been completely abandoned by scholastic medicine?
G: They were fatally ill patients. He transferred some of them in other clinics, to avoid to show deceased patients in his clinic, [but] knowing that they were terminally ill. And so there came up a new problem: suddenly the clinics in Koblenz and Limburg refused ro accept further terminally ill patients [from his clinic].
B: I have heard also, concerning the transport of the cadavers, that this has been handled in a particular decent way..
G: yes, yes, it happened always in the evening or during night that the transportation car for the corpses arrived - in order to avoid to show that car too often to the people.
B: How long time did you work under Dr. Hamer?
G: It was not a long time, I started first of August [1985] and at the beginning of December, after the criminal police search action and they had confiscated everything, the clinic was closed.
B. At the beginning you were impressed by Dr. Hamer for a short time, when he came into your town. Is that correct ?
G: That is correct, I saw this man and I thought: "Oh yes, this is a very different doctor. Physicians are usually gods in white. My impression was: "he is human", but after about three days I thought "no, this Dr. Hamer is quite crazy in his head". I could not support that anymore, his affair.
B: What di you mean by this ?
G: I was rather the secretary, he dictated me some letters, to the district authorities, to the regional government, he was in a battle with everybody, he had also this persecution mania, always someone wanted to harm him. These letters were completely confused - I could not support that anymore, and so I thought "there is something wrong with that man".
B: But you remained there for almost half a year.
G: Yes, in the mean time he had patients and somehow they had to be supplied. They were so poor people, often very ill, and I co-organized that a nurse was engaged for half-day. There was no money. Money failed, that was the evil. Then there was a woman to clean up the rooms, I engaged her from the old hospital, and in the kitchen we needed also some people to prepare the food for the patients. We could no simply abandon these people, the poor ill people.
B: You worked earlier in the same hospital, before Dr. arrived and you have be re-engaged as a secretary. So you are not out of any inner circle of Dr. Hamer, according to your narrative to me.
G: No, no, earlier I had nothing to do with Dr. Hamer. I was in that hospital that was closed beenig too small and at that time we all were happy: "the work continues somehow ... a new doctor is coming and will guide this clinic and we may keep our place of work." But at the end everything developed in a very different way.
B: Now I have a last question Mrs. G: Out of the period with Dr. Hamer, do you remember something exceptional?
G: Yes, I can recall an issue that I will never forget in my life. We had a young and seriously ill female cancer patient and she was there together with her brother. And one morning Dr. Hamer went away with his car without telling us where he wanted to drive, when he wanted to return and gave us no phone number to call him - nothing. And the brother came then to me saying that his siter had much pain and he was seeking the doctor. I told him "I can't reach him, he did not tell us where he is now". and the brother returned two or three times "My sister is screaming because of her pain." And I thought: "I will call now an other doctor, it can not continue this way." And then I called our former surgeon who worked in a private practice then. And he told me: "I come, but I will bring an other collegue to come. I do not enter that clinic alone." He came with a second physician and they gave some analgetic drug to the young lady. And later they have sued Hamer [made a complaint]. So the whole affair (of closing the clinic] started. Later, the criminal police arrived and has confiscated everything. This issue triggered actually the closing of the clinic.
B: Why didn't this doctor want to come alone? Do you remember that?
G: Yes, it was already a contestated issue at that time. He [Hamer]] said always: "the scholastic medicine"... The physicians did not agree the methods of Dr. Hamer. Dr. D. did not want to come alone, he wanted the presence of a witness, a second doctor.
B: But how is it possible that he is practicing such a medicine ? How do you explain that?
G: My explanation is the following: he was totally convinced about his method, I mean about his newly invented opportunities for cancer patients - he was obsessed with that.
B: Thank you very much for this talk.
Interview 2 by S.Bauer (B) with Mrs Müller (M)
B: ...Mrs. M., how did you start [to work with Dr. Hamer] ?
M: The clinic was closed 31th of December 1984, because it was eliminate from a list of planned clinics [Krankenhauszielplan]. I continued to work there until the day 30th of June 1985 to conclude some works. And that Dr. Hamer presented himself in an assembly of the community and asked who wanted to work with him. I had family and so I said of course yes, I want to work with you.
B: You worked as a secretary and you were in the administration?
M: I am coming from the administration, exact.
B: Looking back, how would you describe your time with Dr. Hamer?
M: I am describing it as a very chaotic period and exhausting time. Chaotic because he [Hamer] had no money, we had sometimes not enough money to feed our patients and so it was very very difficult to work there. He could not practice a therapy because sometimes there were no drugs available to relieve pain. I don't even know how he practiced his therapy, with what he did his therapies.
B: Have you ever seen someone healed by his methods, as he is talking about ?
M: No, no. I have never seen someone who was healed during this period. Now I know the fact that natural medicine or chemo therapy have healed in the case of cancer and some say: "I have defeated cancer". But I have never seen someone even only recovering a little bit there during this period, looking back. Sometimes the people had more fun of life, because he transmitted them this fun of life, and he promised them, ..in the case of positive-thinking and believing in his method, that they will be healed. But there was no person I can remember, who left the clinic as a healed person, or improving after some time.
B: And then some people died there. You worked there about half of a year?
M: It was from August to December [1985], not even half of a year. Four,five month, this story was lasting no longer.
B: What happened with the patients who died or with the terminally ill patients before they died?
M: I remember a terrible event happening to me. He was looking always for money. And friends in France supported him very much. And when there was absolutely no money, he took his car and went to France. And then he left the patients and us alone for days. Sometimes this was lasting two or three days until he came back. And a I had a terrible experience - he was outside, or he wanted to start, early in the morning - and he asked me to take care of a particular french female patient. And he left us and two or one hour later I thought: "Okay, now you should go up to the ward." I was usually in the office. And I entered the room, stood in front of the bed and thought: "strange - this woman is not breathing anymore." And in fact, she did not breathe and I touched her and she was already completely cold. The rigor mortis [cadaveric rigidity] was present since a long time. Remembering it, I can feel something cold and hot flowing down my back, and still get problems remembering it. Seeing it from his point of view, then he did act this way because he wanted money for one more day from her family. But this woman, in my opinion, died earlier, during the last night, and he knew that, and he simply fled away.
B: Would it be possible, from your point of view, that he did not want to accept the reality?
M: I agree. He did not accept many facts. He was so absolute in his activities, he saw himself so absolutely, he was so autocratic, he could not admit that his method was not working. He could not admit this to himself or the outside world.
B: He likes to alledge that only very few people are dying with him.. so much less then those who use the "scholastic medicine". My question is now: these deaths, he does not acknowledge...?
M: [interupting] ..Yes, yes Frau Bauer, he handled it sometimes in a particular way. When he noticed that that someone was going to die, he dismissed him rapidly in an other hospital in the neighbourhood. I know that one patient died even during the transport, and the dismissed patients died in the other hospitals within a short time. And he never accepted any fault ! He never said: "The people were so ill, that the other hospitals could not save them." He always said that the other hospitals, or the other physicians ... or that the patients came too late to him. He never accepted any mistake.
B: Did the other hospitals accept this procedure without protesting?
M: It was already known in the region that Dr. Hamer was practicing as a self-declared oncologist in this clinic in Katzenelnbogen, even it is not possible to call that "practicing". You cannot call that practicing. He did not use any particular method, used no drugs, not in sense of natural medicine and not in sense of scholastic medicine, being able to treat and help really. The surrounding clinics and physicians knew that he...
B: ...there were many french female and male patients among his patients during [your] period there. Where are they now? In the surrounding hospitals?
M: Yes, in part also... or he he dismissed them at home. He asked them to return home. I don' t know what he said to the relatives, he spoke a good french and we did not speak french.
B: So he wanted these dying french patients to return home to France in an ambulance...
M: Yes. The one particular female patient I had to take care, died also. This was a problem of lacking money. Also, because he neede money, he did that. Not to become rich, to enable simply... all to survive.
B: So not because of mammonism, but because he believed in his method?
M: Yes, yes. He believed his own ideas and everything for the survival should be bought. He bought even chicken when there was no money for feeding the patients.
B: What did he do with the chicken?
M: They should be chicken of pure race, and eggs of pure-race chicken were important for the healing process in advanced cancer cases. ...Once he bought a duck to walk around in the ward. Of course, the people, the patients were laughing. Of course they gained some fun of life. And then he said: "Look, our patients are on a good path, and they will recover. Listen, Mrs M. how they laugh." Of course they had some fun, but I had no fun at all seeing this.
B: I don't know if you could overlook it, the patients being there, were the all abandoned by scholastic medicine, or were there also patients who had a chance to survive?
M: There were also people who had a chance. I remember a young lady from France, not knowing exactly how advanced was her disease.. But when she came to us she was in a relative good condition, I say this as a not competent person however. But he said, - it was a young lady, a girl - "she has cancer". And she gained some fun of life during her first 14 days there. and she was open-minded. Hamed sent her home. And this woman came back three or four weeks later, being a bit more ill and after having loosed weight. And so he repeated this procedure twice. And at a certain date I knew that she died also. I don't know the medical point of view, was not a patient, had no relatives who died there after his cure. I can only describe it from the point of view of a person working in the administration. It was caotic. I don't wish myself or anybody out of my family to be cured by him.
B: Watching his internet-homepage ([1]) and his presentations: Did you have the impression that he liked fighting [quarrel] or that he had the feeling to be chased in a particular way?
M: Of course... I believe that this is problem, that he felt to be chased. And that the death of his son [Dirk Hamer died in December 1978]... and what he repeated at that time several times: that his wife [Sigrid Oldenburg] got her cancer [she died in 1985 because of breast cancer] because of the death of his son and she did not believe in his method and that she died because of this fact. and he was in a battle with everyone. He accepted only himself and he did not accept the closing of his clinic and continued to practice. From one day to the other we were a boarding house, we had no license as a clinic. So he said: "Okay, then I am a boarding house." He was disputing with everybody. There was no possibility to discuss with him, even about problems in the administration.
B: Concluding, I would like to know, since when did you notice that there is something wrong with him? You worked there because you were there in the administration in the past. Since when did you start to wonder?
M: It was a short time. But remembering this period it seems that it was a long time. Thinking about that time I can't believe that it was only a period of five month, because this time was so chaotic and agitating... and remembering I wish that I never experienced this time. It was clear for us within a short time, after four to six weeks: "it is chaotic and there is no future with Dr. Hamer." Even if we could not say this from a medical point of view, and we could not say this to him, because we had no medical knowledge. I am an administration employee and have no professional medical formation. Everybody who worked with him - and the local government - have dismissed a collaboration with him somehow.
B: Mrs. M,. thank you very much for this interview.
M: You are welcome.
Interview 3 by S. Bauer (B) with Mrs F.
B: ..In one of your talks with me you told me that at the beginning you had a positive impression of Mr. Hamer.
F: Yes.
B: How did he give that impression at the beginning?
F: He radiated benevolence, he radiated a love for people, giving the impression as if he would love all his patients. He could give [german: bring over] this impression very well. He is very able to impress people, so.. we had immediately sympathy for him, we trusted him.
B: Later, you were stunned. How did this happen?
F: Yes, after a few nights I worked there, I was somehow shocked, because he did not realize what he promised [himself] at the beginning.
B: What did he promise at the beginning?
F: Well, that he would heal every patient coming to him. Most of them were in a terminal stadium [of their disease] and everybody was happy that he took care from a different side than scholastic medicine. So that we thought: finally somebody seeing this in a different way, and everybody was convinced that he will be able to perform that, I would say.
B: Have patients be healed during this period?
F: Also - during the period I worked there, no. I could not notice anything like a dismissal of healed patients or a return home to France.
B: You also noted, that he left patients alone? [or: left without any treatment]
F: Yes, in a sense that in the evening, when I was looking in this one or that-one of the patient-rooms they said to me: "Oh, would it be possible that someone looks after us? I saw nobody during the whole last week." Apart from those of the day-service of course, who delivered food and so on. But a medical treatment, was somehow lacking [lost] there. And they were a bit shocked to see that no doctor was visiting them regularly like it is common in other hospitals, where a doctor is looking once or twice a day after the patients.
B: You told me in a preliminary chat about a particular female patient who had a hole in her thigh and an open leg without treatment. How was that?
F: Yes, for a coincidence I looked inside her room because I heard someone whimpering, and I thought: what happens there behind the door, and I looked in and I sat down next to her asking what she had ans so on and so on. And then she said: "Ja, my cancer ulceration, and Dr. Hamer will..." ...At the end he wanted to heal that cancer. And I said: "Why are you crying, what sort of pain do you have ?" Then she lifted her blanket and I could see that she had a hole in her thigh as large as a fist and you could see the bone. And there was no treatment. So I answered: "Yes, why nobody is doing something?" "Ah yes, he gave me a powder and in case of pain I had to disperse some of that powder inside the wound." I thought: "Never seen something like that!"
B: Have you seen other similar cases? Extreme cases, in which you would say: "that's a bit extreme"?
F: Yes, I was noticing a young girl. I suppose she had a bone tumor, and she had terrible pain... during some day she was beating her head in a rhythmic way against the wall of the room during the night. And when I said to him [Hamer] "Doctor, we must absolutely give something to that girl, this [situation] is not normal" then he said "For God's sake, we must not give her any analgetic drug, that would influence the blood so that no healing process occurs." Yes, at that moment I believed that, being ignorant at that moment, I thought: "he must know it".
B: You had no professional medical formation at that time, you were only asked to help some people there for some nights.
F: Yes, I was engaged especially for a french lady: she had breast cancer and her bandage had to be changed a few times per night, but apart from her I should not take care of other people, because it was simply not my duty, because I was engaged by this frenchman, her husband. But although, if you are alone in a ward during night, you look here and there, and if someone is crying or is groaning - then you think: "you must look inside here and there..."
B: You stayed there a longer time, because, if I understood it correctly, you should stay there until the arrival of a nurse.
F: Exactly. It was said: "temporarily, until a nurse will be engaged", substituting me and stays there over night. But during the six weeks I worked there, no nurse arrived, and so I had to continue every night.
B: Do you know who payed [financed] Mr. Hamer?
F: No, I don't know that exactly. There were rumors: he had no money, and the earl from France, so he was called, would finance the affair, he would support financially the whole, that he had money and so on and so on... But I can't say anything with precision. I don't know how this was financed.
B: So, this Mr. Hamer, he took care of a girl with a bone tumor ? We talked about that case earlier, can you explain that again?
F: Yes, I noticed it when her suffering was increasing and we thought: "Oh God, the poor girl, we must help her" ...then that I said to him: "Doctor, what can I do ?" Then he said: "Oh, it's not your duty, I will sleep next to her this night, this will appease her, and she will feel comfort and feel safe. And so on and so on, and I thought: "This is a strange method, that a doctor sleeps next to a patient, to appease her and make her dealing safe. Never heard about..". And that was a bit mysterious. And this happened only in the case of that young girl..
B: And during the period you stayed there, he never gave drugs?
F: No.
B: In the case of bone tumor, in that specific case, or analgetic drugs, he did not give anything?
F: No. This was not allowed, It ought not to happen. What happened earlier.. I started only in October [1985]... there must have been some drugs earlier, because once I heard: "the pharmacy is not giving us drugs anymore..", so he was able to get drugs from that pharmacy in the past.
B: You told me, you had noticed during your nights there, that he was working very much on his CT brain-scans.
F: Yes, he called me once to come down [to the first floor], because I also started slowly to question his theories and then he said: "I show you that, I can explain that to you, so that you will see from what this is arising." So I went down in his room and there he had hang up many CT brain-scans, and he explained to me: "this is Mrs X und that is Mr. Y. Look at this skull here: there is that spot, this focus, and there is that focus being the cause, and caused by psychic problems" Shocks they had apparently in the past, causing the cancer later. That was new to me, I never heard about that before and so I thought at that time: "This perhaps possibly true." If you have never heard or seen nothing about that before, then you think... Especially as a layman - I was layman at that time. If I had my professional formation as a nurse at that time, then I were able to ask this or that. But being a layman you are... a bit innocent confronting such a thing...
[music - interruption]
F: ..he forgot that apparently, because he was working earlier as a scholastic physician. But that was the past and what he had assumed now in his head was now the truth.
B: So he was absolutely convinced by his ideas?
F: Absolutely. Without doubts - no second he showed any doubts about his method. He also never allowed any external objection. If someone dared to say: "Doctor Hamer, don't you think this or that would be the right way..?" "No, for God's sake no !" Simply the hint: "We must give that girl something, to cease her suffering..." "For God's sake !"
B: Later, you worked with other physician, were they also so absolutely convinced then ?
F: No.
B: So this was extraordinary?
F: That was extraordinary.