Changes

B: ...there were many female and male French patients among his patients during [your] period there. Where are they now? In the surrounding hospitals?

B: ...there were many female and male French patients among his patients during [your] period there. Where are they now? In the surrounding hospitals?

M: Yes, spme of them, too... or he dismissed them to their home. He asked them to return home. I don't know what he told relatives, he spoke a good French and we did not speak French.

M: Yes, some of them, too... or he dismissed them to their home. He asked them to return home. I don't know what he told relatives, he spoke a good French and we did not speak French.

B: So he wanted these dying French patients to return home to France in an ambulance...

B: So he wanted these dying French patients to return home to France in an ambulance...

B: What did he do with the chicken?

B: What did he do with the chicken?

M: They should be chicken of pure race, and eggs of pure-race chicken were important for the healing process in advanced cancer cases. ...Once he bought a duck to walk around in the ward. Of course, the people, the patients were laughing. Of course they gained some fun of life. And then he said: "Look, our patients are on a good path, and they will recover. Listen, Mrs M. how they laugh." Of course they had some fun, but I had no fun at all seeing this.

M: These were to be chicken of pure race, and eggs of pure-race chicken were important for the healing process in advanced cancer cases. ...Once he bought a duck to walk around in the ward. Of course, the people, the patients were laughing. Of course they gained some fun in life. And then he said: "Look, our patients are on a good path, and they will recover. Listen, Mrs M., how they laugh." Of course they had some fun, but I had no fun at all seeing this.

B: I don't know if you could overlook it, the patients being there, were the all abandoned by scholastic medicine, or were there also patients who had a chance to survive?

B: I don't know whether you are able to tell: the patients there, were they all abandoned by scientific medicine, or were there also patients who had a chance to survive?

M: There were also people who had a chance. I remember a young lady from France, not knowing exactly how advanced was her disease.. But when she came to us she was in a relative good condition, I say this as a not competent person however. But he said, - it was a young lady, a girl - "she has cancer". And she gained some fun of life during her first 14 days there. and she was open-minded. Hamed sent her home. And this woman came back three or four weeks later, being a bit more ill and after having loosed weight. And so he repeated this procedure twice. And at a certain date I knew that she died also. I don't know the medical point of view, was not a patient, had no relatives who died there after his cure. I can only describe it from the point of view of a person working in the administration. It was caotic. I don't wish myself or anybody out of my family to be cured by him.

M: There were also people who had a chance. I remember a young lady from France, not knowing exactly how advanced her disease was.. But when she came to us she was in a relatively good condition, however, I say this as a not competent person. But he said, - it was a young lady, a girl - "She has cancer". And she gained some fun in life during her first 14 days there. And she was open-minded. Hamer sent her home. And this woman came back three or four weeks later, being a bit more ill and having lost weight. And so he repeated this procedure twice. And at a certain point I knew that she died, also. I don't know the medical point of view, was not a patient, had no relatives who died there after his cure. I can only describe it from the point of view of a person working in the administration. It was chaotic. I don't wish myself or anybody from my family to be treated by him.

B: Watching his internet-homepage ([http://www.neue-medizin.de]) and his presentations: Did you have the impression that he liked fighting [quarrel] or that he had the feeling to be chased in a particular way?

B: Watching his internet-homepage ([http://www.neue-medizin.de]) and his presentations: Did you have the impression that he liked fighting [quarrel] or that he had the feeling to be persecuted in a particular way?

M: Of course... I believe that this is problem, that he felt to be chased. And that the death of his son [Dirk Hamer died in December 1978]... and what he repeated at that time several times: that his wife [Sigrid Oldenburg] got her cancer [she died in 1985 because of breast cancer] because of the death of his son and she did not believe in his method and that she died because of this fact. and he was in a battle with everyone. He accepted only himself and he did not accept the closing of his clinic and continued to practice. From one day to the other we were a boarding house, we had no license as a clinic. So he said: "Okay, then I am a boarding house." He was disputing with everybody. There was no possibility to discuss with him, even about problems in the administration.

M: Of course... I believe that this is problem, that he felt persecuted. And the death of his son [Dirk Hamer died in December 1978]... and what he used repeated several times: that his wife [Sigrid Oldenburg] got cancer [she died of breast cancer in 1985] because of the death of his son, and she did not believe in his method and that she died because of this fact. And he was in battle with everyone. He accepted only himself, and he did not accept his clinic having been closed and continued to practice. From one day to the next we were a boarding house, we had no license as a clinic. So he said: "Okay, then I am a boarding house." He was in dispute with everybody. There was no possibility to discuss matters with him, even problems in the administration.

B: Concluding, I would like to know, since when did you notice that there is something wrong with him? You worked there because you were there in the administration in the past. Since when did you start to wonder?

B: Concluding, I would like to know since when did you notice that there was something wrong with him? You worked there because you were there in the administration in the past. Since when did you start to wonder?

M: It was a short time. But remembering this period it seems that it was a long time. Thinking about that time I can't believe that it was only a period of five month, because this time was so chaotic and agitating... and remembering I wish that I never experienced this time. It was clear for us within a short time, after four to six weeks: "it is chaotic and there is no future with Dr. Hamer." Even if we could not say this from a medical point of view, and we could not say this to him, because we had no medical knowledge. I am an administration employee and have no professional medical formation. Everybody who worked with him - and the local government - have dismissed a collaboration with him somehow.

M: It just took a short time. But recalling this period it seems that it was a long time. Thinking about that time I can't believe that it was only a period of five months, because this time was so chaotic and agitating... and remembering it I wish I never experienced this time. It was clear for us within a short time, after four to six weeks: "This is chaotic and there is no future with Dr. Hamer." Even if we could not say this from a medical point of view, and we could not say this to him, because we had no medical knowledge. I am an administration employee and have no professional medical education. Everybody who worked with him - and the local government - refused cooperation with him somehow.

B: Mrs. M,. thank you very much for this interview.

B: Mrs. M,. thank you very much for this interview.

M: You are welcome.

M: You're welcome.

==Interview 3 by S. Bauer (B) with Mrs F.==

==Interview 3 by S. Bauer (B) with Mrs F.==

B: ..In one of your talks with me you told me that at the beginning you had a positive impression of Mr. Hamer.

B: ..In one of your conversations with me, you told me that you had a positive impression of Mr. Hamer in the beginning.

F: Yes.

F: Yes.

B: How did he give that impression at the beginning?

B: How did he manage to cause this impression in the beginning?

F: He radiated benevolence, he radiated a love for people, giving the impression as if he would love all his patients. He could give [german: bring over] this impression very well. He is very able to impress people, so.. we had immediately sympathy for him, we trusted him.

F: He radiated benevolence, he radiated a love for people, giving the impression he loved all his patients. He could get across this impression very well. He is very able to impress people, so .. we immediately felt a sympathy for him, we trusted him.

    

    

B: Later, you were stunned. How did this happen?

B: Later, you were stunned. How did this happen?

F: Yes, after a few nights I worked there, I was somehow shocked, because he did not realize what he promised [himself] at the beginning.

F: Yes, after a few nights I worked there, I was somehow shocked, because he did not put into practice what he promised [himself] in the beginning.

B: What did he promise at the beginning?

B: What did he promise in the beginning?

F: Well, that he would heal every patient coming to him. Most of them were in a terminal stadium [of their disease] and everybody was happy that he took care from a different side than scholastic medicine. So that we thought: finally somebody seeing this in a different way, and everybody was convinced that he will be able to perform that, I would say.

F: Well, that he would heal every patient coming to him. Most of them were in a terminal stadium [of their disease] and everybody was happy that he took care from a different angle than scientific medicine. So we thought: finally somebody seeing this in a different way, and everybody was convinced that he would be able to perform that, I would say.

B: Have patients be healed during this period?

B: Have patients be healed during this period?

F: Also - during the period I worked there, no. I could not notice anything like a dismissal of healed patients or a return home to France.

F: Well - during the period I worked there, no. I never noticed anything like a patient being dismissed or returning home to France due to being cured.

B: You also noted, that he left patients alone? [or: left without any treatment]

B: You also noticed that he left patients alone without any treatment?

F: Yes, in a sense that in the evening, when I was looking in this one or that-one of the patient-rooms they said to me: "Oh, would it be possible that someone looks after us? I saw nobody during the whole last week." Apart from those of the day-service of course, who delivered food and so on. But a medical treatment, was somehow lacking [lost] there. And they were a bit shocked to see that no doctor was visiting them regularly like it is common in other hospitals, where a doctor is looking once or twice a day after the patients.

F: Yes, in a way because in the evening, when I was looking into one or the other of the patient's rooms, they told me: "Oh, is it possible someone looks after us? I saw nobody during the whole of last week." Apart from personnel on day-service, of course, who delivered food and so on. But no medical treatment there. And they were a bit shocked to see that no doctor visited them regularly like it is common in other hospitals, where a doctor is looking after patients once or twice a day.

B: You told me in a preliminary chat about a particular female patient who had a hole in her thigh and an open leg without treatment. How was that?

B: You told me in a preliminary chat about a particular female patient who had a hole in her thigh and an open leg without treatment. How was that?

F: Yes, for a coincidence I looked inside her room because I heard someone whimpering, and I thought: what happens there behind the door, and I looked in and I sat down next to her asking what she had ans so on and so on. And then she said: "Ja, my cancer ulceration, and Dr. Hamer will..." ...At the end he wanted to heal that cancer. And I said: "Why are you crying, what sort of pain do you have ?" Then she lifted her blanket and I could see that she had a hole in her thigh as large as a fist and you could see the bone. And there was no treatment. So I answered: "Yes, why nobody is doing something?" "Ah yes, he gave me a powder and in case of pain I had to disperse some of that powder inside the wound." I thought: "Never seen something like that!"

F: Yes, I happened to look into her room because I heard someone whimpering, and I thought: What's going on behind that door, and I looked in and sat down next to her asking what she had and so on. And then she said: "Yes, it's my cancer ulceration, and Dr. Hamer will..." ... At the end he wanted to heal that cancer. And I said: "Why are you crying, what sort of pain do you have ?" Then she lifted her blanket and I could see a hole in her thigh as large as a fist, and you could see the bone. And there was no treatment. So I answered: "Yes, why is nobody doing anything?" "Ah yes, he gave me some powder, and in case of pain I had to disperse some of that powder into the wound." I thought: "Never seen anything like that before!"

B: Have you seen other similar cases? Extreme cases, in which you would say: "that's a bit extreme"?

B: Have you seen other similar cases? Extreme cases, in which you would say: "That's a bit extreme"?

F: Yes, I was noticing a young girl. I suppose she had a bone tumor, and she had terrible pain... during some day she was beating her head in a rhythmic way against the wall of the room during the night. And when I said to him [Hamer] "Doctor, we must absolutely give something to that girl, this [situation] is not normal" then he said "For God's sake, we must not give her any analgetic drug, that would influence the blood so that no healing process occurs." Yes, at that moment I believed that, being ignorant at that moment, I thought: "he must know it".

F: Yes, I noticed a young girl. I suppose she had a bone tumor, and she was in terrible pain... One night she was beating her head in a rhythmic way against the wall of the room. And when I said to him [Hamer] "Doctor, we must absolutely give something to that girl, this [situation] is not normal", then he said "For God's sake, we must not give her any analgetic drug, that would influence the blood so that no healing process occurs." Yes, at that moment I believed that, being ignorant at that moment, I thought: "He ought to know".

B: You had no professional medical formation at that time, you were only asked to help some people there for some nights.

B: You had no professional medical education at that time, you were only asked to help some people there for some nights.

F: Yes, I was engaged especially for a french lady: she had breast cancer and her bandage had to be changed a few times per night, but apart from her I should not take care of other people, because it was simply not my duty, because I was engaged by this frenchman, her husband. But although, if you are alone in a ward during night, you look here and there, and if someone is crying or is groaning - then you think: "you must look inside here and there..."

F: Yes, I was especially hired for a French lady: she had breast cancer and her bandage had to be changed several times per night, but apart from her I was not supposed to take care of other people, because it was simply not my duty, since I was engaged by this Frenchman, her husband. But still, if you are alone in a ward at night, you look here and there, and if someone cries or moans - then you think: "You simply must have a look..."

B: You stayed there a longer time, because, if I understood it correctly, you should stay there until the arrival of a nurse.

B: You stayed there a longer time, because, if I understood correctly, you were meant to stay there until the arrival of a nurse.

F: Exactly. It was said: "temporarily, until a nurse will be engaged", substituting me and stays there over night. But during the six weeks I worked there, no nurse arrived, and so I had to continue every night.

F: Exactly. They said: "temporarily, until a nurse will be engaged", substituting me and staying there at night. But during those six weeks I worked there, no nurse arrived, and so I had to continue every night.

B: Do you know who payed [financed] Mr. Hamer?

B: Do you know who paid [financed] Mr. Hamer?

F: No, I don't know that exactly. There were rumors: he had no money, and the earl from France, so he was called, would finance the affair, he would support financially the whole, that he had money and so on and so on... But I can't say anything with precision. I don't know how this was financed.

F: No, I don't know exactly. There were rumors: he had no money, and the earl from France, as he was called, would finance the business, he would support the whole thing financially, that he had money, and so on and so on... But I can't say anything definite. I don't know how this was financed.

B: So, this Mr. Hamer, he took care of a girl with a bone tumor ? We talked about that case earlier, can you explain that again?

B: So, this Mr. Hamer took care of a girl with a bone tumor ? We talked about that case earlier, can you explain that again?

F: Yes, I noticed it when her suffering was increasing and we thought: "Oh God, the poor girl, we must help her" ...then that I said to him: "Doctor, what can I do ?" Then he said: "Oh, it's not your duty, I will sleep next to her this night, this will appease her, and she will feel comfort and feel safe. And so on and so on, and I thought: "This is a strange method, that a doctor sleeps next to a patient, to appease her and make her dealing safe. Never heard about..". And that was a bit mysterious. And this happened only in the case of that young girl..

F: Yes, I noticed when her suffering increased and we thought: "Oh God, the poor girl, we must help her" ...then I said to him: "Doctor, what can I do ?" Then he said: "Oh, it's not your duty, I will sleep next to her this night, this will appease her, and she will feel comforted and safe. And so on and on, and I thought: "This is a strange method, a doctor sleeping next to a patient, to appease her and make her feel safe. Never heard about this..". And that was a bit mysterious. And this only happened in the case of that young girl..

B: And during the period you stayed there, he never gave drugs?

B: And during the period you stayed there, he never gave any drugs?

F: No.

F: No.

B: In the case of bone tumor, in that specific case, or analgetic drugs, he did not give anything?

B: In the case of bone tumor, in that specific case, or analgetic drugs, he did not give anything?

F: No. This was not allowed, It ought not to happen. What happened earlier.. I started only in October [1985]... there must have been some drugs earlier, because once I heard: "the pharmacy is not giving us drugs anymore..", so he was able to get drugs from that pharmacy in the past.

F: No. This was not allowed, It ought not to happen. What happened earlier.. I started only in October [1985]... there must have been some drugs earlier, because once I heard: "The pharmacy does not give us drugs any more..", so he was able to get drugs from that pharmacy before.

B: You told me, you had noticed during your nights there, that he was working very much on his CT brain-scans.

B: You told me you noticed, during your nights there, he was working on his CT brain-scans very often.

[[image:Rosenhof-ct.jpg|thumb]]

[[image:Rosenhof-ct.jpg|thumb]]

F: Yes, he called me once to come down [to the first floor], because I also started slowly to question his theories and then he said: "I show you that, I can explain that to you, so that you will see from what this is arising." So I went down in his room and there he had hang up many CT brain-scans, and he explained to me: "this is Mrs X und that is Mr. Y. Look at this skull here: there is that spot, this focus, and there is that focus being the cause, and caused by psychic problems" Shocks they had apparently in the past, causing the cancer later. That was new to me, I never heard about that before and so I thought at that time: "This perhaps possibly true." If you have never heard or seen nothing about that before, then you think... Especially as a layman - I was layman at that time. If I had my professional formation as a nurse at that time, then I were able to ask this or that. But being a layman you are... a bit innocent confronting such a thing...

F: Yes, he once called me to come down [to the first floor], because I also started to question his theories slowly, and then he said: "I show you that, I can explain that to you, so that you will see from what this arises." So I went down to his room and he had hung up many CT brain-scans, and he explained to me: "This is Mrs X und that is Mr. Y. Look at this skull here: there is that spot, this focus, and there is that focus being the cause, and caused by psychicological problems" Shocks they had apparently had in the past, causing the cancer later. That was new to me, I never heard about that before and so I thought at that time: "This may perhaps be true." If you have never heard or seen anything about that before, then you think... Especially as a layman - I was a layman at that time. If I had had my professional training as a nurse at that time, then I would have been able to ask some questions. But being a layman you are... a bit innocent confronting such a thing...

[music - interruption]

[music - interruption]

F: ..he forgot that apparently, because he was working earlier as a scholastic physician. But that was the past and what he had assumed now in his head was now the truth.

F: ..he forgot that apparently, because he used to work as a scientific physician before. But that was the past and what he had assumed now. was the truth now in his mind.

B: So he was absolutely convinced by his ideas?

B: So he was absolutely convinced of his ideas?

F: Absolutely. Without doubts - no second he showed any doubts about his method. He also never allowed any external objection. If someone dared to say: "Doctor Hamer, don't you think this or that would be the right way..?" "No, for God's sake no !" Simply the hint: "We must give that girl something, to cease her suffering..." "For God's sake !"

F: Absolutely. Without doubt - he never showed any doubt about his method for even a second. He also never allowed any external objection. If someone dared to say: "Doctor Hamer, don't you think this or that would be the right way..?" "No, for God's sake, no!" Just at the hint: "We must give that girl something, to cease her suffering..." "For God's sake !"

B: Later, you worked with other physician, were they also so absolutely convinced then ?

B: Later, you worked with other physicians, were they also so absolutely convinced?

F: No.

F: No.